SillyDog701

[Antony]

Access to Netscape newsgroup, and the ridiculous filesize of Mozilla products

If my understanding was correct...
Mozilla (Mozilla Application Suite) = Firefox + Thunderbird.

Today, in order to further verify if I am really banned from Netscape's secure newsgroups (secnews), I decided to download the latest Thunderbird and further testing if I can access it and post there.

What's ridiculous?
Mozilla 1.7RC3 is only 14.6MB in file size.
Firefox (0.8) is 9.5MB.
Thunderbird (0.6) has massive file size of 10.6MB.

So if you decided to use Firefox + Thunderbird, you will need to download additional 5.5MB.
And additional 5.5MB can be translated to about 15 minutes for 56k modem users, if the line connection is good.

In the past, I keep having problem accessing secnews. For some times, I can read the messages, but none of my replies were gone through. Hence I concluded that I must be banned.
I've been tested with a number of environment and even with my old Windows machine, which I used to be able to access secnews in the past. However I failed to access to that (both from my new Power Mac and old Windows machine).
Personally, I have not been happy with secnews.
I do realise Netscape's secure newsgroups (secnews) have strong tie with Netscape Champion and Mozilla Champion. It is true that SillyDog701 is affiliated with Netscape Champion and Mozilla Champion, however, SillyDog701 one of the major Netscape/Mozilla supporting websites targeting real average end users. I see no reason why I should be banned.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8

[Antony]

Well, I installed Thunderbird, and I tried to access to Netscape's secnews
The settings are as following...

I can't see anywhere I got it wrong.

But I still can't get the wanted newsgroup list...


I guess I must be banned from Netscape's secnews.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8

[Fulvio]

Antony,
first about the size. The download file size is not so important, as you have shown that Netscape can be run with your program which was 40% the size of the original Netscape. The installed size is the most important.
Talking about ridiculous, look at the size of Silyydog7.1, at 27.2 MB plus 16MB GRE. I work out of the unzipped files with new programs, and that reduces the size. Moz1.7RC3 is 33.4 MB, which Thunderbird is 23.0, and Firefox15.2. The combined TB+FF is larger than the Mozilla suite, but not by much.
As for the banned part, you did not select any newsgroup. There should be a check mark, under subscribe.
FYI: netscape.mozilla.thunderbird gives the Thunderbird forum
You will have to type "netscape7" (no asterisk) in the show items... to bring up the fora. I have selected windows as well as mcintosh. You can do the same for mcintosh
netscape.mozilla.user.win32 for mozilla windows
netscape.mozilla.user.mac for Mac
netscape.mozilla.thunderbird for thunderbird
netscape.mozilla.firebird for firefox
I am subscribing to all fora.
So, my conclusion is that you are simply not subscribed to any particular forum.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) (CK-SillyDog)

[Antony]

As for the banned part, you did not select any newsgroup. There should be a check mark, under subscribe.

The second screenshot is what I want to show people, if you look carefully, the sections
netscape.mozilla.xxx
and
netscape.netscape.xxx

were simply not available for me. (I can't get them by clicking the "triangles".)

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8

[ChrisI]

If my understanding was correct...
Mozilla (Mozilla Application Suite) = Firefox + Thunderbird.

Nope. The underlying code is the same, but the user interface is different. In the pre-1.0 stages they're still stripping away the leftover code.

to further verify if I am really banned from Netscape's secure newsgroups (secnews)

Email Jay, and ask. Do you want me to ask him for you?

The second screenshot

Have you clicked on the "Refresh" button? The newsgroup list seen in that screenshot is the hierarchy of the non-secure groups.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040608

[Fulvio]

Antony,
you have a couple of choices.
1. follow what Chris suggested.
2. Try to follow my suggestion, by typing one of the fora, or simply type
netscape.mozilla in the show items. The list should change.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040206 Firefox/0.8

[Lorraine]

no message

UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)

[Antony]

If my understanding was correct...
Mozilla (Mozilla Application Suite) = Firefox + Thunderbird.

Nope. The underlying code is the same, but the user interface is different. In the pre-1.0 stages they're still stripping away the leftover code.

Well, didn't they decide to separate (Navigator) and (Mail/Newsgroup) out from Mozilla?
That has nothing to do with user interface.

The second screenshot

Have you clicked on the "Refresh" button? The newsgroup list seen in that screenshot is the hierarchy of the non-secure groups.

Of course I clicked the "Refresh" a few times.

And because I feel those listings are for non-secure groups, and I have lots of trials so far... Result? I can't access to Netscape's secure newsgroups.

May I now conclude that I've been banned from Netscape secure newsgroups?

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8

[Alice]

Antony,

I seem to remember some people reporting problems adding the secure (port 563) secnews.netscape.com newsserver if the nonsecure (port 119) secnews.netscape.com newsserver account exists. In any case, try this:

Select and REMOVE the secnews.netscape.com server account in Mail&Newsgroup Account settings window.

Then set up the account again, either manually or by clicking a link such as
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.netscape7.windows
or
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.mac

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113

[Antony]

Fulvio:
When I only had so little list, the search does not work. I tried that, sorry forgot to mention it.

Alice:
I only have one single newsgroup account in Thunderbird.
I got it working, (see below)

update of my situation
I guess I have to take the words back.
After a few more tests. I decided to remove the account completely and start again. This time, with identical settings. And surprise, they allowed me to access Netscape secure newsgroup.

The new question: Was I banned before?

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8

[Fulvio]

Antony,
from what you said I would not come to the conclusion that you were banned. But, I remember that at one time I could not subscribe to anything, in fact I could not even type the information in the Search. Then, I removed the account, and tried again a few days later, and everything was ok.
Glad that you got in, and, while trying to get an answer for you I ended up suscribing to five or six fora. I did not know they had so many.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a2) Gecko/20040612 Firefox/0.8.0+

[Alice]

OK, I got it figured out.

Both the secure and non-secure netscape.com newsservers have the same name: secnews.netscape.com. In Netscape 7.xx (or Mozilla) when you add a news account and enter secnews.netscape.com as the news server name, the account is created as nonsecure (port 119) when you you finish creating the account. Before you do anything, you have to go back into the account settings, server settings window and click "Use Secure Connection". That changes the port to 563 and makes it a secure account. Then you can access the newsgroup list and subscribe to one of the secure newsgroups like netscape.netscape7.windows, which isn''t available in the nonsecure newsgroup list.

However, if you access the newsgroup list BEFORE you change the server settings to use a secure connection, you are stuck, and will get the partial list that Antony got. Changing the server settings to "Use Secure Connection" (port 563) at that point will do you no good. The secure groups won't get added to the list and you have to remove the account and start over... OR, leave that account as nonsecure (port 119) if you wish and add another secnews.netscape.com newsserver account, but this time click "Use Secure Connection" in the server settings BEFORE you access the newsgroup list.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2)

[Ramona]

The new question: Was I banned before?

I don't think you were banned, Antony. Thunderbird seems to be somewhat like Netscape 7, in that you sometimes have to change the settings several times before they are retained. In your case, it took recreating the Newsgroup Account. I seem to recall that you had already set up the Port setting for 563.

Ramona

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040608

[ChrisI]

Well, didn't they decide to separate (Navigator) and (Mail/Newsgroup) out from Mozilla?

No, it's not as simple as cutting a loaf of bread. Some code is shared; and they want to take advantages of the stand-alone nature.

That has nothing to do with user interface.

From the Roadmap:
"Focus development efforts on the new standalone applications: the browser currently code-named Firefox, the Mozilla Thunderbird mail/news application, and standalone composer and other apps based on the the new XUL toolkit used by Firefox and Thunderbird."
The suite (Seamonkey) uses XPFE.

From the Firefox Development Charter:
"Beginning with the core Mozilla code, unnecessary UI was removed, existing UI were refined and new UI added with the goal of providing efficient (speedy, easy to use, useful) web access."

The new question: Was I banned before?

You weren't.
I emailed Jay earlier today. The answer:
"Nobody is banned, that simple. Must be something in his configuration, firewall, whatever ..."

if you access the newsgroup list BEFORE you change the server settings to use a secure connection, you are stuck, and will get the partial list that Antony got.

Nope. Try it. Clicking on "Refresh" gives you the new list. Antony's problem was just more complex.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040608

[Antony]

Thanks for all the help.

It is really a surprise that just in order to get some support, you will need to figure out how to set those complicated things up first.

What if a user just can't successfully connect to secnews? How could that user seek help from Netscape's secure newsgroups?

So I am going to say... Netscape's secure newsgroups (secnews) is ridiculously complicated to set it up in order to get help.

I'm pretty sure an end-user supporting online based forum like SillyDog701 Message Centre is a lot easier for average users to get help.

UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/125.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.8