Drivers License Photo Dispute

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It is a privilege to have a driver's license.

It is a right to have a driver's license.
4
44%
The Constitution should be amended?
3
33%
Freedom of religion is very important ?
1
11%
Anyone should be able to wear a mask or veil while driving.
1
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Total votes : 9

Postby Lorraine » Fri 20 Jun, 2003 5:35 pm

Shark Daddy wrote:
I like this thread :) It brings spice to this forum.


:lol: Leave it to Lorraine to do that !

Shark Daddy wrote:
has no choice but to follow her religion


She did have a choice, either to drive or not to drive or to take Legal Action.

You can't go around driving with your face covered and only your eyes with mascara showing!!! Was she allowed to flirt with her eyes with another man, in her religion? :)

How do you know it's not a man? An escaped criminal? One of the 10 MOST WANTED ?

If you can's see their face when taking their picture, how do you know who it really is?

The Judge ruled, so all she had to do was uncover her face and get her photo taken, then drive.

Otherwise, no Driver's License!

I''m pretty sure this case was in California.

-Lorraine :)
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Postby Antony » Fri 20 Jun, 2003 10:03 pm

Shark Daddy wrote:"You know what I'm talking about" really doesn't cut it if you're presenting a court argument.
We are not in the court.

Is the government not showing disrespect and inequality toward her religion by the same token?
You are talking two un-related things.

I am using Canadian law as an example simply because it is what I know. There's usually an American equivalent, and I could probably find one.
And you should, otherwise don't quote any regulations.
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Postby Hatewa » Sun 22 Jun, 2003 4:21 pm

Lorraine wrote:
I really don't think it is anyone's right to get a license.
.
Lorraine


I speak here as a professional driver who has logged over a million miles behind the wheel.
I believe that it should be a right to have a driver’s license, not a privilege, (as the Authorities would like us to see it).
It should be a right, in the sense that voting is a right. Before one can vote, one has to be 18, and satisfy certain other conditions, (residency, for example), and one has to go through the registration process to get on the voting list, and to remain on it, fill out a census form every few years.
There is no reason that obtaining and holding a drivers license couldn’t be handled in much the same way—as a right, but with certain conditions, i.e. vision testing, road testing, good driving record etc.
Making it a privilege, is nothing more than just one more subtle way for hydra-headed government, (in this case in the form of The Registry of Motor Vehicles, DMV), to manipulate us common folk into a subservient position—to make us realize who really has the power and control.
Keeping it a privilege only makes the ordinary driver more nervous about driving than he or she already is. When we’re stopped out there, (rightfully or wrongfully), that uniformed fellow leaning into the drivers window wants us to know, right off, that driving is a privilege, and if we don’t watch out, he, personally, (backed by the law of course), has the authority to snatch away that precious privilege.
These days, with our rights slipping away from us at an ever increasing rate, due to government's intrusive behavior, (under the guise of protecting us, of course), we should lay claim to every right we still can.
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Postby Hatewa » Sun 22 Jun, 2003 4:35 pm

Lorraine wrote:I certainly won't be trying anymore polls in here.
Guess people didn't understand :roll:
-Lorraine


Lorraine,
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The poll is incidental. The baby is the important and intelligent discussion that you started.
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Postby Lorraine » Sun 22 Jun, 2003 9:28 pm

First off, that post you referred to about not doing a poll again was written ages ago. Nobody had answered... :cry:
I've been having fun in here, since then ;)

As for driving a million miles, I too have driven far. I have been driving for 55 years. Quite a few miles I imagine but haven't counted
I don't know if I can even count to a million.<g>

I've had two tickets in that time. The last one was last year I think or the year before. $138.00 for driving in the bus lane for 10 ft as I was turning right and the traffic was at a standstill. 40 people got caught that day.
It was a trap. One man is going to court.

I still think it is a privilege for anyone to drive.
One must pass tests, whether with vision or other health problems, it is imperative that the laws of each state, province or whatever are followed.

I drive with special mirrors in my car and I have several restrictions.

I would be a danger on the road if I decided that I shouldn't have to use those special mirrors as well as other paraphanalia.
It's not only for my security, but for others too.
I had to take a test with an occupational therapist as well as the driving instructor to get my license reinstated fifteen years ago.

The doctor didn't think I should drive, but I insisted and he said as long as I passed the test I could. It was my right to drive only because I passed the tests. Laws are there for a purpose.

The Muslim lady didn't pass the test because she wouldn't take her veil off to have her picture taken. Probably, this wouldn't have happened, had 9/11 not occurred. I really don't know.

But as she refused the requirements to get her license, the judge ruled that she wouldn't receive a Driver's license.

I still drive and will have to have another test next year... Probably will lose my license, I think it is a privilege that I am driving now. Not very far, I have put 13,000 KM's on my car since 1998.
It would have been cheaper to take a taxi :) I don't drive very far.

You sound like the ACLU;-) I believe in Civil Liberties also.
But that only applies as long as you are following the law.

Also, remember you are responsible for your own actions.

Happy driving or trucking!
I hope you live long enough to put on another million miles..

-Lorraine
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Postby Hatewa » Mon 23 Jun, 2003 10:40 am

Lorraine.
I think "having fun" is the most vital part of your response. It's funny how an offering to this site often takes on a life of its own— opens up a plethora of doors, and lodges in all sorts of nooks and crannies.

The" million" is a "ballpark" figure, and is probably slightly more. However, one way to count to a million is to start with 1. . .

I am a bus driver, so naturally I'm unsympathetic to the fine you received.
Through the years, I have been blessed with three citations, which I followed through into court and won dismissals on all three. My main weapons in the legal jousts were a camera and long hours spent in the Superior Court library. I learned that when you go into court on such matters, never rely on just one argument—always have two or three more in reserve, because the officer is usually only prepared to encounter one mode of attack, (in most cases, the more obvious one).

My main point was: Driving can be a "right" and still have all the necessary tests and safeguards that you mentioned.

I do appreciate the candor with which you describe your driving limitations and your humility in assessing your driving ability.
I have found that EGO is one of the main ingredients of poor driving, and the cause of many accidents. Driving has much to do with self control and pattern recognition and if one is full of oneself, one is often oblivious to what is actually going on out there, and unprepared to respond adequately to potential accident situations.

Sorry Islam. The law should apply equally to the Lone Ranger, Batman, the Green Hornet and the Muslim lady. No Masks!!!
I will admit, however, that when I played Santa last Christmas, I drove just about everywhere in the suit. But I tried to be as conscious as possible and didn't fool myself for even one second that the Toyota was a sleigh.

I agree with Shark Daddy on the tinted windshield matter, as reading the facial expressions and body language of other drivers helps us to anticipate their actions and react accordingly.

As far as the ACLU goes, (and, of course, realizing that it is philosophically absurd to label oneself), I will say this: I am not a "joiner".

I agree with you fully that we must be responsible for our own actions. Understanding that there are wrongs that need to be righted in this world, the blame game, in and for itself, prevents us from recognizing and learning from our own mistakes, and has no praiseworthy place in driving, or anywhere else for that matter.

Nice chatting with you Lorraine
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Postby Ramona » Mon 23 Jun, 2003 3:57 pm

Hatewa,

Nice reading your humorous post. What a great gift you have, and I think I must buy your book!

Ramona :mrgreen:
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Postby Hatewa » Mon 23 Jun, 2003 6:58 pm

Thank you Ramona, and yes please do, but I hope your not easily shocked. I grew up in a rather earthy neighborhood and was a precocious little rascal of a kid.

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Postby Lorraine » Tue 24 Jun, 2003 1:22 am

:) hatewa, you're too funny, and an excellent writer.

I have enjoyed reading your posts. They are humourous as well as interesting and debatable ;-)

Yes, I agree with you, fun is very vital for your health as well as entertaining..

:lol: Counting to 1 million, yes I tried starting from 1, I couldn't find my hilighter, lost track when I got to 99 bottles~ oops~ miles and then the car kinda broke down :)
Incidently<g> the hi-liter fell on the floor, it got stuck under the gas pedal, I braked, the car kept going, I nervously looked down, and hit the car in front of me. The guy in back of me, hit my rearend. So that my car was totaled :P
I never tried to count the mileage I did again :-)

It saddens me that you are unsympathic for me tho' when I was fined $138.00 At least I didn't get any demerit points.

MY TALE OF WOE

My washing machine had broken down the day before.
I went to play bridge the folllowing day in the Church, it was Seniors Club day, and before returning home I decided to go and look at the price of a new washer. They were expensive, compared to when I bought my last one at least 25 years ago.<g>

You see, when I ususally go out from the church parking, it is a kind of main street so I would just drive right over to the passing leftside lane. I would stay in that lane until my exit. I never liked to change lanes.

I hadn't noticed the bus lane. It was new. There was a lot of traffic. It really was unusal. Anyway, that day I just drove a couple of feet and then noticed the bus lane, and got in the right hand lane as soon as possible.

Traffic was crawling along as there was a very busy cross street ahead, on which I was intending to make a right turn. However, the traffic was at a standstill when I got there, I was just a few feet from the cross street, I looked to see if there was a bus, there wasn't any traffic at all in the bus lane, so I darted out to make my right turn.

Well, it happened I did it before the curve.
Evidently, there is a white curve and you shouldn't go near that bus lane, until you get to the curve.

I didn't know that. I didn't feel like sitting in the lineup for nothing.
One cop was in a car with radar and the other was hauling the people that drove in the bus lane in. We were three cars when I was hauled. All with a long face....:lol: I wasn't laughing then.

The cop told me I should know the rules if I drive, after I said, "I didn't know there was a curve."
I agree, he was right.
There must have been something I should have read about "white curved lines."

But they stopped a little old lady, going about 10 miles an hour to give her a $138.00 ticket and the punks out driving get away with zigging and zagging and breaking all kinds of rules and running STOP signs.

I didn't digest it very well. I am usually such a careful driver. I called him something that, I should have known, is reason to get another ticket, also I was lucky. But I was furious.

I didn't buy a washer, I came home and I guess the adrenal was flowing, as I moved the washer, checked it out, and saw this thingy, not a plug but a thingy that fits on another thingy , it is like one prong of a plug. I put the loose thingy on the prong. I tried my washer and it worked. This was after taking the back off the washer.

So, actually I saved about $500.00 by getting that blasted ticket :roll:

If I had tried to fight it, after calling the copper what I did, they would have thrown me in the clinker overnight, I guess. lol I understand they have pretty good librairies in the Club Feds tho' but I guess I would have been in just a solitary cell in my province with french books for a week or whatever, depending what I said in court. <~grin~>

Yes, tinted windshields in the front of a car are against the law in my province. The cops have to see who is in there when they give out tickets.
Especially if it's a little old lady ;0)

I didn't join The Civil Liberties Association either.

Like you, I just think that sometimes "Big Brother" does have his nose in too many of our affairs. I guess now in the computer age, they have a file on everything that we say on line too.. it must be big about me...hehe

Are you a member of the Communist Party, hatewa?? <that was just for fun>

I was just thinking of the McCarthy years and J.Edgar Hoover. Don't ask me why, I was too young then, I think:-)

This is just all tongue in cheek... and it has been a pleasure chatting with you Hatewa, as well as everyone else.

Now I guess I will have to think about another subject to debate and chat about...
Is Hatewa spending too much time on the computer? He looks tired! <just kidding>!!
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Postby Hatewa » Tue 24 Jun, 2003 10:34 am

I believe it was Aristotle who said that humor is based on the recognition of incongruities. It may or may not have been he who said that, but I have yet to find an exception to it, in over thirty years of trying. If you find one, by all means, please tell me.
About ten years ago, I thought I had discovered an exception, but waited until the next day to write it down, and like a dream, it was lost.

My Ford, (whew) what an Odyssey! Had I known, I would have indeed been more sympathetic-bus driver or not! Perhaps you should have played just one teensy weensy extra hand of bridge that day. It is curious how slight delays, (an extra hand of bridge, pausing to slip a bum a dime, etc.), can change the complexion and time scheme of our whole day. Woes we might have encountered could be replaced by happy events, or even darker woes, who can tell? Perhaps had you not been stopped and ticketed by that cop, an accident might have awaited you on your next right turn.
Lorraine, that cop not only saved you five hundred smackeroos- he may have saved your life!

After calling the cop a x*%#/+x, it was wise of you not to take the matter to court. That is usually the first thing the Judge or Clerk wants to be assured of— that you were polite to the officer and did not call him a x*%#/+x, or worse.

We do agree on that tinted window business. How would you like to be an officer of the law approaching one of those vehicles with severely darkened windows, not knowing whether you were going to greeted by a naked lady, or a punk with a pistol.

Hmmmmm, on second thought, maybe it's worth the chance!

None-the-less, I'm against them. They take away one of the essential animal aspects of driving— eye contact!

I wonder what Carl Jung would have made out of all of this.

Now, to your main question: Am I a communist?

Only if my mother isn't looking.

Keep the faith Lorraine,

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Postby Lorraine » Tue 24 Jun, 2003 12:50 pm

My Ford, (whew) what an Odyssey! Had I known, I would have indeed been more sympathetic-bus driver or not!

Very interesting! :lol:
Yes, it was my brand new 1998 Escort, mag wheels and all and a manufacturer's CD player that holds 6 CD's, with 13,000 km's on the odometer.
And it is a true Odyssey. Annoying at the times, but worth a laugh today.
No Bridge to day, I don't play at that club anymore, found a better one with some of the same players. Nice place overlooking the lake.

I want to apologize for some of the errors in the previous email I wrote.
I did 'Preview' before sending it, but it was late, I changed a few things but it seems not enough.

Hatewa, it's true, if I had played an extra hand of bridge I might not have saved the $500.00, but as you say, I might not be here today.
The cop with the radar might have saved my life, but instead he saved me $500.00 and I called him a B#%$/&# ! But I forgive him, some cops are very nice, until the next one stops me for some silly infraction. Nobody was in that Bus path, not as far as the eye could see.<g>
He was just doing his job. So I keep telling myself :twisted:
I assure you I wasn't going to court for the ticket, I ruined all chances that I had, not only did I call him a blasphemus name, when he told me to fasten my seatbelt when I drive,[ I had removed it as I was waiting] I said," I will fasten if if I feel like it." He said," I will give you another ticket if you don't."
I was bad tempered at that moment. I think I had a lot of nerve now and didn't realize the consequences of what might have happened. I was under a lot of personal pressure at the time, I just wasn't my usual happy self.

Cops have a hard time these days. I wouldn't want to be one. Not that I could, but perhaps only as a traffic cop for just 'one day' would be fun. I would love to be able to give out tickets to some of the drivers. Bus drivers too. :)
I know they have priority, but sometimes they don't seem to know what they want to do. And those truckers, they used to be such good drivers.
Not any more. Just some of them....I like truckers....have to save myself.

Now we'll chat about Aristotle. It's been a long time since I read any of Aristotles works. But here is something to ponder:

A Universal Philosophical Refutation
A philosopher once had the following dream.
First Aristotle appeared, and the philosopher said to him, "Could you give me a fifteen-minute capsule sketch of your entire philosophy?" To the philosopher's surprise, Aristotle gave him an excellent exposition in which he compressed an enormous amount of material into a mere fifteen minutes.
But then the philosopher raised a certain objection which Aristotle couldn't answer. Confounded, Aristotle disappeared.
Then Plato appeared. The same thing happened again, and the philosophers' objection to Plato was the same as his objection to Aristotle. Plato also couldn't answer it and disappeared. Then all the famous philosophers of history appeared one-by-one and our philosopher refuted every one with the same objection.
After the last philosopher vanished, our philosopher said to himself, "I know I'm asleep and dreaming all this. Yet I've found a universal refutation for all philosophical systems! Tomorrow when I wake up, I will probably have forgotten it, and the world will really miss something!"
With an iron effort, the philosopher forced himself to wake up, rush over to his desk, and write down his universal refutation. Then he jumped back into bed with a sigh of relief. The next morning when he awoke, he went over to the desk to see what he had written. It was, "That's what you say."

Bye for now,
-Lorraine
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Postby Hatewa » Tue 24 Jun, 2003 2:28 pm

Lorraine,

I wouldn't worry about errors. Your humanity, intelligence and grit are obvious in your communications and far outweigh any superficial errors, which we all make.

Your philosopher reminds me of my Dad.
I was fourteen, at the time, and my sister was attending a Catholic College. I stumbled on one of her philosophy books, "The Study of Epistemology", and opened to the 1st Chapter entitled, "The First Principle of Epistemology". It said: "A thing cannot be, and not be, at the same time, under the same aspect. I decided to run it by my Dad-an auto mechanic with a sixth grade education who had read a total of two books in his entire life.
He scratched his head, thought about it for a minute, then said, "Why the hell not?"

Somewhere in the Astral Plane, your philosopher and my Dad are probably slugging beers together.

I hesitate to go into more cop stories, (though it's tempting), because they tend to bring forth peoples antipathies and have a tendency to spiral downward in content and tone.

But back to your philosopher: It seems, in the end, just about everything philosophical, (and political), comes down to "opinion", doesn't it?

I trust my cat, Lizzie, here. She has extraordinary opinions about many things.

H
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Postby Lorraine » Wed 25 Jun, 2003 9:13 pm

Hatewa:
I want to thank you very much for the compliments about my intelligence, humanity, etc. :)

This will be my last message.

It has been a pleasure chatting with you.

-Lorraine
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Postby Hatewa » Wed 25 Jun, 2003 11:25 pm

:wink:
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Postby Lorraine » Fri 01 Aug, 2003 9:55 pm

For anyone that is interested:
In this thread, I stated that I received a ticket for driving in the bus lane, a few feet before the curve.

I also said that one person was going to court for receiving his ticket that day, he was acquitted, it seems we were in a trap and 40 people were stopped in about an hour or so.

Of course I paid mine. Oh well, the next time I'll just have to watch my language when speaking to a cop. <grin>

Just thought you might like to know....:lol:
-Lorraine
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