AOL to discontinue Netscape web browser

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Postby JayGarcia » Wed 09 Jan, 2008 9:35 pm

When I went to you site the day of the announcement (very shortly after the announcement was made) there was no way to post a new thread
Beats me, lots of folks started new threads after the announcement AND in the same thread. Gremlins are to blame.

I know you think I'm being a jerk
I don't reply to "jerks".

I was royally ticked when the announcement came
I was in the meeting where the decision was made .. and you were just "ticked"? ;-)

After all... we're all going to be watching expectantly now. I hope for all our sakes that it materializes.
For the record I have no advance knowledge of anything materializing, only some valid interest being shown at this time.

I apologize.
For what, expressing your opinion??? Never a problem.
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Postby James » Wed 09 Jan, 2008 9:44 pm

Father born in Russia. Mother born in Scotland. Call it.... hotblooded temperment. It's fine to express an opinion, but it's not a good thing to press the point (as I've done) too vehemently. So, I'm going to quietly sit in the corner and count ceiling tiles for the time being. Ooops... wife is calling me and asking what happened to the coffee I was supposed to make. The tiles will have to wait.
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Postby Joji » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 2:32 am

FYI,

James wrote:Petitions are useless (as earlier petitions to repatch and update NS 7.2 were useless).


JayGarcia wrote:There was no "petition" to revive Netscape 7.2, it was just a "poll" to see how much interest there was. Polls are not petitions.

The first petition I'm aware of is between 7.1 and 7.2; Nov, 2003.

Save the Netscape Browser Petition

Your opportunity to be proactive! - SillyDog701 Message Centre

It was the days when Mozilla suite is 1.5 and Firefox is Firebird.
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Postby Fulvio » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 11:30 am

I was unaware of the petition, which tells all I said all along.
As for the survey mentioned by Jay, it goes back to a survey at the Netscape Browser (presumably the standalone Netscape) site.
The quoted survey, and what was posted at the Netscape Browser site, as well as statements made by a number of people indicate nothing but confusion. For many Netscape means a Suite. So, what is the big surprise? I have read posts at different places, which say, ok, we got Navigator 9, but where is the Mail?
I could go on for quite a while, but, it is pointless.
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Postby James » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 11:56 am

The confusion of which you speak, Fulvio, is understandable. Netscape/Mozilla/AOL/Firefox/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird/Navigator ... it's all confusing. I've heard so many different stories about this history as to make my head swim. And who is to blame? I look at Opera and see a suite of applications that have continued to be developed in an orderly fashion over many years. For that matter, Internet Explorer/Outlook Express/Outlook have been developed in an orderly fashion. But Netscape and what became of Netscape is a bit of a mess. Some want stand-alones. Some refuse to leave the suite. Netscape appears to have subdivided so many times that who can blame anyone for thinking that Navigator contained an e-mail client? Even to this day we have folks saying they hate Firefox but love Navigator. Firefox won't work for them but Navigator will. Huh? Some whine because they don't like how tabs work with Firefox as opposed to Navigator or to SeaMonkey. Geeze! Is it really all that earth-shattering? It was only a few years ago that there was no such thing as tabbed browsing. I've bounced among these programs and not been terribly confused by the slight differences in how tabs were operating. But evidently some folks can't seem to do this and so the complaints continue, the programs remain divided, Internet Explorer remains firmly entrenched and we've no clue where it will all lead.

It's a soap opera.
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Postby Fulvio » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 3:42 pm

James,
I am limiting the confusion part on Netscape alone. That is where some people are stuck. I have seen posts from people who claimed to have used Netscape since before the advent of the Internet, and feel that there has been an orderly progression till today, and so should be able to use what is the latest. There have been breaks since the old days, and the purchase by AOL. Formats have changed, with a radically different NS7.x (from 4.x), but still a suite. The shift to a standalone browser, and not standalone Mail is still poorly understood by people who believe only in Netscape.
Mozilla/Firefox/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird/Navigator
do not belong into this situation.
As for Opera, it is the only program which I purchased way back when. I gave it up because its mail was pathetic. Mail works, now, I don't like the global settings, i.e. all accounts are in one place. I have nine active accounts in TB! I would never find anything.
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Postby J-M » Thu 10 Jan, 2008 4:11 pm

The following Google related news & forum site has released interesting screenshots of early Netscapes - using Google's homepage last week:

Google As Seen Through Vintage Netscapes

The JavaScript and CSS support is not so brilliant... :D
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Postby samike » Fri 11 Jan, 2008 1:19 am

I think the vast majority of users are disappointed about the discontinued development at Netscape and not at the people involved in the project. Those individuals can only do and go so far as the ownership will let them. After NN9 and Messenger came out, so many die-hard users were encouraged as to the possible re-emergence of the Netscape brand. I am sure all the programmers were excited also. Then to have what happened made users feel abandoned and very much disappointed. Jay, I bet the news was a gut wrenching experience for you and all the other long time faithful. You worked very hard with the hope that Netscape would once again play a vital role in the net and e-mail.

We'll wait and see what happens in the future. As you have stated, there may be a company willing to obtain the brand and have a strong committment.

People may look for a scape goat, but in my opinion, it doesn't reside with the Netscape programming crew.
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Netstripe Lives!

Postby Sailfish » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:47 pm

Hello friends, it has been awhile since I've paid a visit. It looks like most of the folks I knew back then are still around ... that's a good thing! :)

Anyway, I just wanted to notify folks who had grown accustomed to the Navigator 9 Netstripe theme and it's Messenger counterpart that they have been bundled together and renamed to Simple Green.

Here's the formal announcement.

Happy Days!
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Postby James » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:20 pm

I'm using them both on my T-bird and FF and they're excellent. Thank you so much, Sailfish, for these wonderful themes and your hard work.
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Postby Antony » Fri 25 Jan, 2008 2:01 am

Sailfish,

Thanks for dropping by and the announcement.
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Postby Sailfish » Fri 25 Jan, 2008 2:51 am

Hello James, I'm pleased to see that you find my portation of Andy Fraley's themes enjoyable. I agree, they are very crisp and clean.

Antony, it has been a long time ... too long. I hope everything is going well for you. The site looks great, btw.

Take care.
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Netscape is gone.

Postby ryaxnb » Mon 28 Jan, 2008 4:54 pm

Netscape was my favorite web browser in the v.2 days. I skipped over v.3 for the most part for IE 3 (bad choice) used both IE 4 and NC4 (should of stuck with IE /flamebait), and went on a NC4.5-N6 path (should've used IE5 </moreflamebait>) before awakening to the incredible light that is Mozilla (and then Firefox/bird). I have tested Netscape 8, but as my Mac is my primary computer now, I was dissatisfied. Netscape 9 is just a Firefox with some new trimmings and a bunch of ads (as was Netscape 8, excluding IE compatibility.) I do wish they would open source the Netscape name, logo, and all browser sources (as a Creative Commons license for the Name and logo, and GPL for the sources); for two reasons; in the interest of academic study (look at N4 and 3 and compare, etc.) and because there is currently no good name for open source Firefox versions (the Firefox name is property of Mozilla Corporation); the Netscape name would be a good name for a simple rebranding of Firefox and Thunderbird as truly GPL-d browsers. After all Netscape has some brand recognition, a handsome logo, and an independent identity, unlike IceWeasel and IceScape.

As that will not happen however, Netscape shall die a peaceful death. It combatted Internet explorer - and lost. But not before it gave birth to a new, superior browser and encouraged competition - Firefox and Safari/Konqueror. :-( and mostly :-)

Here is my summary of Netscape's history:

Netscape 1: Begins browser frenzy. Creates incredible popularity in "The Web." Rating: 9 stars. Includes <EMBED> tag, later used for Flash. Impact rating: 10 stars.

Netscape 2: Introduces JavaScript, later the defining add-on to the web, IMHO. Introduces HTML 3 (portions). Rating: 10. Impact rating: 10 stars.

Netscape 3: Refines JavaScript. Adds Java, later regarded as almost worthless. Competes against IE 3, first major competitor. Smooth, fast, not very buggy, and incredibly well-programmed. Adds many new technologies for multimedia, most later abandoned. Rating: 10. Impact Rating: 8.5 stars.

Netscape 4: Introduces portions of CSS and HTML 4- already outdone by Opera and IE. Introduces many technologies (document.layers, anyone?, and JSS) later abandoned, with good reason. Introduces "Suite" concept, never popular. Buggy. Large. Popular. Rating 7.25 stars. Impact rating: 6 stars. Note: This is the Defining reason, IMHO, Netscape lost popularity. With a good browser, it might have stood a chance. But v. 4 was buggy, large, and lacked support for standards

Netscape 4.5: Compressed Netscape into a more manageable size and eliminated components that were unnecessary -- good move. Eliminated support for Windows 3.1, 68k Macs, and some other platforms, as well as Navigator-only support - bad move. Netscape 4.5 was a mix, but it simply was a loss for someone who only used Navigator. They no longer had as much clutter in the full version, but they were forced to use the full version, as Navigator stand-alone was no longer available. To add insult to injury, barely 4 year old 68k computers and also barely 4-year old Windows 3.1 computers could no longer run Navigator. However, iCab was still runnable on your old 68k, and IE 5 ran on Win3.1. The result? Defection to IE and iCab in the moment they needed as much support as they could get. Rating: 7.25 stars. Impact Rating: 2 stars.

Netscape 4.8: Actually released after 6 was, Netscape 4.8 was a large improvement from 4.08 and 4.5 in stability. However, that's not saying much. Aside from that, not much to mention; move along. Nothing to see here. Rating 7.5 stars. Impact Rating: 0 stars.

Netscape 6: Another buggy, slow, demanding, limited release from Netscape. What's new? Oh right, the completely different (and still alpha) codebase, which was really much improved but wasn't ready for primetime yet. Not to mention the somewhat ugly interface. Nevertheless, as an inspiration for Mozilla developers, this had a large Impact. It also had a large impact in standards support.
Rating: 6 stars. Impact Rating: 10 stars.

Netscape 6.1/6.2: MUCH better. Not so slow, not any buggier than 4.5, more websites worked with it too. Almost primetime ready, this codebase was awesome. You could finally tell, if you were a web developer.
Rating: 8 stars. Impact rating: 8 stars.

Netscape 7.0x: Tabs. Pop-up Blocking (7.01 and later.) Those two features changed your life; well they changed mine anyway. Plus, 7.01 was fast and stable. But there was a dark side; 7.00 showed Netscape's commercialism by eliminating the pop-up blocker, simply because Netscape.com and AOL.com had pop-ups. Evil! 7.01 fixed that though.
7.00 rating: 7.5 stars. 7.01 rating: 9 stars. Impact rating: 10 stars.

Netscape 7.1/7.2: These minor updates were unimpressive, mostly because Mozilla was delivering minor updates more often; there were two updates in between 7.1 and 7.2 on mozilla, and three between 7.0 and 7.1. This was also when Netscape development was farmed out.

Netscape 8: Evil. IE was in there. And it only worked on windows (WTF?). Bad. Ads galore, and no redeeming features other than a phishing detector. Firefox was so much better.
Rating: 4 stars. Impact Rating: 4 stars (two for the security features, two for the IE option, copied by IETab.)

Netscape 9: Better, this release was available for Linux and Mac again. Thank Gosh. No more IE either. Overall, a solid release; but Firefox was updated more often and had less ads. Rating: 7.5 stars. Impact Rating: What Impact? Impact? We don't got no Impact.

The Impact rating, BTW, determines the browsers long-term impact on the market. This is important in browser history and often very different from the browser rating.
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Postby ryaxnb » Mon 28 Jan, 2008 5:05 pm

James wrote:Something like: "Don't Hate Software" "Netscape Dead" "Dont use Netscape"

James, sorry to say it, but the simple fact is, some will have an irrational want to continue to use netscape. It is not a big deal, one's choice of web browser. You yourself implied that. Yet you go on, almost like you have a problem with Netscape. If some people want to use Opera 2.5 for browsing cause they like how grey it is, that's fine. They can deal with it, not you.
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Postby ryaxnb » Mon 28 Jan, 2008 5:13 pm

JayGarcia wrote:Re: Navigator is a clone with a few extras thrown in

Yes, common knowledge that it's a "clone", "reskinned", "rebadged" and all the other juvenile cliches when used in some contexts. However, there is a lot more to NN 9 feature-wise as opposed to Firefox. The two favorites of mine are "Restart Navigator" and the abilitiy to drag a text area to resize it on-the-fly. There is a lot more unique features to NN 9 as well.

Well, if I may throw my voice in, the problem with having many nice new features added on to Firefox are two-fold, and both concern extensions.
1. Extensions don't always work with Netscape. Particularly when Netscape is behind other Firefox incarnations in FFox internal version number. As Extensions are a popular part of Firefox, this is a major downside.
2. (most important) You can add most any Netscape features, using extensions to Firefox. Give me a feature of Netscape 9 and I'll bet you can find an extension for Firefox 2 that replicates or builds on the feature. An avid coder who was inspired by Netscape could even build a "replacement Netscape" that would have all the features of Netscape except the branding, and would work with the latest Firefox version, provided he kept it updated.
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